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Bebop
Joined: 10 Nov 2008
Posts: 7
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 Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:05 pm Post subject: How can we not? |
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I wouldn't say I have an answer
But simply put.
Do we exist? - Why not?
In this chapter there were alot of refferences to perception altering machines, even a refference to "The Matrix"
Lets use that.
Even if we were hooked up to such a machine.
We still must exist to be able to be hooked up to it.
Our perceptions may be false, but out existance necesarily isn't.
We can't be hooked up to a machine that we're not around to be hooked up to.
Or
Even if we're part of a simulated universe.
Purhaps some amazingly powerful computer simulation created by a very advanced speciese.
We still exist as data in their simulation.
I don't think that we can validate existance through what we percieve, more that we validate our existance because we perceive, however wrong those perceptions may be.
Regardless of wether we're being influenced by a perception altering machine, or part of a simulation, we still exist as part of them.
From my point of view even though we might not be able to prove we do exist, we'll never be able to prove we don't. Comprehending that I, or we, or anything doesn't exist, or how things would be if all that didn't, isn't something we, or at least I can't grasp.
If we truly didn't exist, and there was nothing to make us exist, none of this would be happening, though thats a meaningless argument because we wouldn't know, because we wouldn't have anything to know, or anything to "know" with. But now I'm rambling... |
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HarryStottle
Site Admin
Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 320
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| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: How can we not? |
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| Bebop wrote: | Even if we were hooked up to such a machine.
We still must exist to be able to be hooked up to it.
Our perceptions may be false, but out existance necesarily isn't.
We can't be hooked up to a machine that we're not around to be hooked up to. |
Sorry. Wrong on two counts. First who is this "we". I can't be sure that anyone or anything else exists outside whatever it is that I perceive as my mindspace. I believe it, of course. But if it was a half decent simulation, then I would wouldn't I.
Second, thinking that you're hooked up to a matrix style simulation machine doesn't require or prove the existence of either the machine or the entity which believes it's hooked up to it.
We're left at square one. The ONLY thing which logically follows from any and all my/our perceptions is that SOMETHING exists. It may be just me, living in a fantasy world. It may be all of us living in an even bigger fantasy world. It may be the world more or less as we believe we perceive it.
But NOTHING we perceive shortens the odds on any of the above possibilities.
| Bebop wrote: | | Regardless of wether we're being influenced by a perception altering machine, or part of a simulation, we still exist as part of them. |
Nope. Something exists, yes. But whether it is the "we" we perceive, cannot be proven.
| Bebop wrote: | | even though we might not be able to prove we do exist, we'll never be able to prove we don't. |
Correct.
| Bebop wrote: | | Comprehending that I, or we, or anything doesn't exist, or how things would be if all that didn't, isn't something we, or at least I can't grasp. |
Also correct. We are psychologically incapable of contemplating our own non-existence (or, at least, that's how it looks to me!) | Bebop wrote: | | If we truly didn't exist, and there was nothing to make us exist, none of this would be happening, though thats a meaningless argument because we wouldn't know, because we wouldn't have anything to know, or anything to "know" with. But now I'm rambling... |
Also correct  |
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Bebop
Joined: 10 Nov 2008
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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Alright then, I suppose I concede to you 
BUT
If we can't prove that we do exist, and if we can't prove that we don't, does it really matter? Wouldn't that mean its a meaningless question to begin with, like the invisible fairy over someones shoulder you mentioned in the book?
One answer is unobtainable.
The other is probable, but not provable.
Either way life goes on and we go about our daily lives. |
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HarryStottle
Site Admin
Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 320
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| Bebop wrote: | BUT
If we can't prove that we do exist, and if we can't prove that we don't, does it really matter?...
Either way life goes on and we go about our daily lives. |
You're quite right. Whether or not what we perceive is close to reality it has zero effect on our daily lives. We HAVE TO behave in accordance with our perceptions (or we'll get run over crossing the road, burned by the hot coals, fall into the hole in the path etc etc - or, at least, we'll have those unwelcome experiences)
More importantly, however, is that it forces us to concede that the only sensible way to behave is in accordance with our perceptions. We can't second guess them. All we can do is confirm and clarify them. And THAT is the process of Empiricism. We perceive something. We confirm the perception and then we try to explain it. Modify parameters, look at it from a different angle, test the hypothesis. Modify again and eventually arrive at an explanation which is fully consistent with our perceptions.
That is the only Rational way to make judgements about what is going on in the world and how we should react to it. Move one nanometre outside that process and you are behaving irrationally.
And the importance of that is that the REALLY important issues we have to deal with in our lives (in the fields of Politics, Economy, Education, Health etc) HAVE TO start from that same basic position. If they are not empirical and try to pretend that they are based on some kind of absolute truths which exist despite the conclusion we've reached, then they cannot be rational.
And there, in a nutshell, you have the cause of most of humanity's problems. Nearly all our political and economic behaviour is indeed based on notions of Truth which have absolutely no basis in empirical reality. They are literally meaningless.
We are used to admitting this much in regard, for example, to religious beliefs, particularly their childish notions about genesis and evolution. But in fact the SAME kind of irrationality is the dominant mode of public reasoning.
This is how and why, for example, it was possible for the world's remaining superpower to get into the psychotic state necessary to invade Iraq. It is why it was possible, more recently, for the world's governments to somehow will the means to fund the global banking system with 2 Trillion dollars in a matter of days - when for the last 50 years it has been apparently unable to find the few billion dollars required to eliminate global hunger.
It is why the whole world believes money has value or why millions of Americans watch Fox News and think it IS news. It is why, the world over, people still believe Democracy is about electing dictators to make decisions on our behalf. And so on.
The failure to understand the First Question (Do We Exist?) and the failure to appreciate the consequences which flow from its answer - particularly the limitations it implies for "certainty" - are the principle causes of all our subsequent problems.
That's why it matters! |
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Jesus 2.3
Joined: 03 Jul 2010
Posts: 18
Location: Harman Geist Stadium
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 7:50 pm Post subject: Re: How can we not? |
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| Bebop wrote: | I wouldn't say I have an answer
But simply put.
Do we exist? - Why not? |
because life would be rather boring if you didn't exist in my world. I would hope that your life would be as empty without us in your world.
I don't believe you can change my mind on this, if your life is already empty, don't blame me - but i hope to change your mind on the subject.
I want to help you see the truth about our common reality, and give you a reason to believe.
| Bebop wrote: | | In this chapter there were alot of refferences to perception altering machines, even a refference to "The Matrix" |
Call me that machine if you'd like. But you already perceive what needs to be seen, what needs the altering is the perception in your mind.
| Bebop wrote: | Lets use that.
Even if we were hooked up to such a machine.
We still must exist to be able to be hooked up to it. |
Never doubt your existence my friend, just keep on eating those salt peanuts until the end. Unless they make you dizzy or take a pee. | Bebop wrote: |
Our perceptions may be false, but out existance necesarily isn't.
We can't be hooked up to a machine that we're not around to be hooked up to. |
Wrong, the machine that you're hooked on merely shows you the light. The light that you watch isn't in reality the truth. It is the slime that oozes from your TV set, not only on a Saturday night. | Bebop wrote: |
Or
Even if we're part of a simulated universe.
Purhaps some amazingly powerful computer simulation created by a very advanced speciese.
We still exist as data in their simulation. |
What have you been smoking? I want some of that shit!
| Bebop wrote: | | I don't think that we can validate existance through what we percieve, more that we validate our existance because we perceive, however wrong those perceptions may be. |
You're almost there!
What we perceive validates our existence, what we imagine confuses those perceptions, causing you to doubt your existence.
Please trust me when i tell you that we are both really here.
| Bebop wrote: |
Regardless of wether we're being influenced by a perception altering machine, or part of a simulation, we still exist as part of them. |
Correct. | Bebop wrote: | From my point of view even though we might not be able to prove we do exist, we'll never be able to prove we don't. Comprehending that I, or we, or anything doesn't exist, or how things would be if all that didn't, isn't something we, or at least I can't grasp.
If we truly didn't exist, and there was nothing to make us exist, none of this would be happening, though thats a meaningless argument because we wouldn't know, because we wouldn't have anything to know, or anything to "know" with. But now I'm rambling... |
You're not rambling - you stopped yourself from continuing your thought process.
If you were still rambling on, then we'd be concerned about your sanitiy.
While you stopped yourself from getting into an endless feedback loop,
I hope you are still able to think about living your life to the best of your ability.
_________________
I'm back with a new name, but you may not have known me before.
I have many names, Daniel is one of them.
Daniel was a prophet, this one's a mastermind.
In virtual reality i'm Jesus 2.3 - but i am no god!
i'm just an asswhole who knows it all. |
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